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« George Monbiot, Voice of Reason | Main | More truth and lies in the war on terror »

September 17, 2003

Comments

Dave J

Dick Morris is right on this: of all the serious Democratic contenders, only Dean CANNOT, under any circumstances, beat Bush. Yet the same reasons why this is true are the reasons he will be the nominee. The Democratic Party is sending itself into the wilderness for decades, and even as a GOP supporter, I can't think such catastrophic collapse of the two-party system can be a good thing.

dr.dna

I was under the impression that Arafat didn't even make a counter-offer, just walked out? That the Palestinian negiotating team made some concessions, but Arafat didn't approve them.

Gene

Well said, Oliver. Although with the entry of General Clark into the contest, I don't think Dean's nomination is a foregone conclusion by any means.

Also, Israel has no constitution and so cannot be called a constitutional democracy.

Dave J

Well, Gene, then I guess the UK wouldn't count as a constitutional democracy either. Simply because you can't point at one particular document labeled "constitution" does not necessarily imply a lack of constitutionalism (or vice-versa, see, e.g., the worthless constitution of the dictatorship of your choice, past or present).

james

Oliver,

As a leftist shouldn't your support be for the Israeli (and Palestinian) left campaigning against the occupation and for self-determination, not with Sharon/Likud and the settler/religious parties in the Israeli government?

Gene

As a leftist shouldn't your support be for the Israeli (and Palestinian) left campaigning against the occupation and for self-determination, not with Sharon/Likud and the settler/religious parties in the Israeli government?

James, if there were a Palestinian equivalent of Peace Now-- which was as willing to challenge the Palestinian Authority as the Israeli peace movement is willing to challenge the Israeli government-- I think you'd have an excellent point.

Oliver Kamm

I endorse Gene's point. It ought to be a liberal principle that we side with a constitutional democracy (i.e. a polity characterised by such things as parliamentary democracy, the rule of law and an independent judiciary, even where a written constitution does not exist) when it faces a threat to its security and the safety of its citizens from terrorism. Twenty years ago, when it was founded, I was a sympathiser with the Peace Now organisation; but it eventually became clear to me that 'Peace Now' is a misleading slogan, for it implies that it's open to Israel to create peace unilaterally, presumably by withdrawing from those territories occupied after 1967 that it has not already given back. I see no evidence to support that premise; after all, unilateral withdrawal from southern Lebanon has not prevented further terrorist attacks. I favour the approach of successive Israeli governments over the past decade of trying to establish a basis of negotiation with the PLO/PA such that Israel's security is guaranteed while a Palestinian state is established in something approximating to, but not identical with, the pre-1967 borders. That requires a negotiated settlement based on compromise. Tragically the Palestinian leadership has not negotiated seriously and has not fulfilled its obligations under Oslo; I see see nothing left-wing about allowing it to renege on those commitments.

Former Belgian

I loved your comments on Dean and on Shimon Peres, the only man who could run in an election against himself and lose ;-)
I assume that your definition of "constitutional democracy" does not require a written constitution. One only has to flick on the TV and watch the Knesset Live Channel (33) when parliament is in session to see vigorous democracy in action, but Israel does not (yet) have a written constitution, just a set of Basic Laws (many of them "Bill of Rights" type) that is still being added to.
Then again, British democracy has done just fine without a written constitution...

As for Israeli hard "peace"niks: I know enough of them to know exactly what Tammy Bruce meant when she used the term "malignant narcissist" in a different context.

Dave J

"Constitutional democracy" requires a parliamentary system of government, Oliver? Then I guess the US is out, along with most of the population (although not most of the countries) of the Western hemisphere.

Apologies for a lawyer's habit of pedantry.

james

Gene,

I find it hard to believe that there is no body of Palestinian opinion that opposes the suicide bombings and the failure/unwillingness of the PA to stop them, though not as strong as the Israeli equivalent - which is hardly surprising given the conditions existing in Palestinian society. Shouldn't it be supported?

Oliver,

If the maintenance of the occupation is out of fear that the Palestinian war against Israel would continue and perhaps even intensify if the Palestinians were given a state on the West Bank and Gaza, and that the PA would do nothing to stop it then Israel should call the Palestinians bluff. If this situation panned out they would be entitled to re-occupy the terrirories (on the same grounds that the US was entitled to invade Afganistan).

You could argue that such a withdrawal and reinvasion would be strategically damaging to Israel. Maybe, maybe not. But given the possibility of peace and the manifest strength of Israel compared to the Palestinians this would surely be worthwhile. Also Israel could make its withdrawal contingent on the institution of an interim international security force in the territories to replace the IDF in providing its security.

And such a move by Israel would greatly bolster its stock of moral capital - which is provided by the democratic features of Israeli society which you cite. Incidentally doesn't the damage the occupation does to Israeli democracy also mean that to support it we should oppose the occupation.

But I think there is more to the maintainence of the occupation than this consideration, though it is undoubtedly significant. There are also those who harbour dreams of a Greater Israel and the lack of desire to start an Israeli civil war - the same considerations that seem to prevent the PA from taking on the suicide bombers.

Ryan

Oliver,
You argue that there is a moral case for the United States to ally with Israel, and you describe America as possessing a ‘civic religion’ of promoting liberty. But what about the moral case for the US to ally with the Palestinians: the promotion of *their* liberty? Similarly, there is a democratic case for opposing the murder or expulsion of Yasser Arafat – his status as the democratically elected and popular leader of the Palestinians. You write about ‘solidarity for an embattled democracy’ but omit to mention solidarity for an occupied people. You consistently emphasise one case and omit the other, and so it is not surprising that you come out in favour of siding with Israel.

Plus, it is disappointing, though not surprising, to hear you repeat that old line that Barak made an unprecedented offer at “Camp David and Taba” and Arafat rejected it. This is a gross and inaccurate over-simplification of history; it ignores Barak’s disastrous and misfiring ‘take it or leave it’ negotiating stance, his presentation of early positions as ‘bottom lines’, his refusal to let Arafat see his final proposals (and Arafat’s refusal to budge until he’d seen the final proposals), the lack of a concrete offer at Camp David, ... well, it ignores pretty much everything. (A manageable but more comprehensive version events can be found, for example, here).

The statement made at Taba just ten days before the talks collapsed read "The two sides declare they have never been closer to reaching an agreement and it is our shared belief that the remaining gaps could be bridged with the resumption of negotiations following Israeli elections." But, of course, then Sharon and Bush were elected, and time ran out. Or, according to your version, Arafat ‘walked away’. It strikes me that the quote “by always blaming others, they never have to focus on their own mistakes” cuts both ways.

Oliver Kamm

The account that Ryan links to, by a member of the US peace team and by a Palestinian politician, has been battered ruthlessly by Ambassador Dennis Ross - follow the link in my post to see his treatment of this type of special pleading.

Squander Two

Ryan,

>> "what about the moral case for the US to ally with the Palestinians: the promotion of *their* liberty?"

You're getting confused between the Palestinians and the PA. If you support the cause of liberty for Palestinians, you should support Israel. Arafat and the PA are fighting for Palestine, not Palestinians, just as Stalin fought for Hungary, not Hungarians.


>> "his status as the democratically elected and popular leader of the Palestinians."

If Blair tried to do in a UK election what Arafat did in his "election", the result would be invalid.


>> "You write about ‘solidarity for an embattled democracy’ but omit to mention solidarity for an occupied people."

Expressing solidarity with the Palestinians by supporting Arafat is like expressing solidarity with Russians by supporting Stalin.

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