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January 23, 2004




Unfortunately your post is similar to Me Too Then's. A lot of fear contained therein.

Apparently you believe than any concessions to the Palestinians will lead to some sort of genocide/invasion of Israel. I don't know where to start with such a delusional view.

Its quite possible to make peace with Arab states as has been proven, and if you think Israel is in any danger of being invaded now, I really think you better wake up to the situation as it is now. For years the biggest recipient of foreign aid from the USA was Israel, it may still be the case, not seen the latest figures - it receives massive amounts of aid from the USA, and military and technical assistance. It has a nuclear detterent too.

The idea that any state would dare invade Israel, even if they are capable of doing so effectively -simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

With such fear on loathing on both sides I fear there is little chance of peace.

There is such a fundamental lack of understanding on both sides. It is very sad. Genuinely deeply sad.


The situation reminds me of two blind ogres fighting each other, each one wailing. No one is prevailing but gradually the environment and future is being destroyed around them. An eye for an eye, as Gandhi once said, leaves both parties blind.



Waffle. I was trying to get to the proposition in the articles you linked. The articles are basically puff pieces for the islamic terror groups cited.

If my synopsis of the pieces is wrong, please elucidate for everyone's benefit.


Benjamin, thank you for your response.

This thread began with an MP who claimed that she too could become a mass murderer.

It is not only that there is understandable fear and loathing in Bali, Moscow, Istanbul, Jerusalem Tel Aviv, Washington, DC, New York, Baghdad, because there are people who have sworn allegiance to death so as to mass murder others, including but not limited to Muslims, Christians, Jews, women, children, the elderly, UN workers, the IRC, etc, but that an MP could come away with such a claim as Dr. Tonge did, and still be supported for it, is also worth loathing.

And no, no one has a monopoly on suffering. But the so-called refugees, living in their own homeland, need look no further than the corrupt PA, and the EU and the Arab States who finance and allow the PA's perfidy, as to the real root cause of their suffering.

The road map to peace is a fiction. This is not hyperbole or calumny. This is not name calling.

In the disputed territories infants, women, and children are dressed up and as celebrated the mass murderers of civilians. So-called "collaborators" with Israel receive summary execution. Arafat and his cadre rule with impunity, while Arafat's family receives millions of dollars to live in Europe.

There is no basis for peace while there is jihad. There is no basis for peace when there is absent democracy in the Arab world. The call to drive the Jews into the sea is just that, a call to genocide. First the Jews, then the Infidels.

Israel is fighting an existential war. This is war is not about land-for-peace. This war has never been about reaching an armistice.

My point is that the conflict that is playing out in Israel, is the same that murdered 3000 New Yorkers, several hundred holiday-goers in Bali, etc.

And when you look for the reasons why people are willing to commit mass murder, it is because of the glorification and deification of death that is part and parcel of both militant Islam as well as Baath National Socialism/Pan-Arabism.

This is what you refuse to acknowledge in your replies.

And when you add anti-Semitism to the mix, what you get is the specious and dangerous calumny of people like Dr. Tonge.



Right. Mmmmm. Do you offer any solution?


Gandhi's recommendation -

" .. They [Jews] can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs. They should seek to convert the Arab heart. The same God rules the Arab heart who rules the Jewish heart. They can offer satyagraha in front of the Arabs and offer themselves to be shot or thrown into the Dead Sea without raising a little finger against them. They will find the world opinion in their favour in their religious aspiration".

Is that your recommendation too, Benjamin ?



Of course not! Just because I quote Gandhi on one issue does not mean I agree with him on all his views, if that was his view.

If you had been reading my posts you would see I have already stated some tentative thoughts on the future.

You are being quite ridiculous now. I detect more than hint of paranoia, to be frank with you.



Nope. I've read all your posts since your 'last post on this site', and you haven't offered anything definite except :

1) To call for 'understanding'
2) Link us to a couple of a-historical puff pieces in the Guardian.


On reflection, you must be a 'LIBERAL'!



Personally I think your whole style of debating is in danger of getting quite vituperative and unpleasant. I came here in good faith. To put my views forward on the issues. You might not like them, that's fair enough.

I have at least tried to put some proposals forward.

What are your proposals for the future?



By the way, if you think the Guardian articles are merely "puff pieces" you might like to contact their author Seamus Milne about it. But please be polite and decent about it. I don't want to get the blame for any needless abuse.
I thought his work was okay, quite informative.


I tried to take you up on the articles that you linked - the ones you reckon offer hope.

So, if we could just explore that first, as an aid to future thoughts. In the articles you linked, the extremists may deign to give the jews a hudna (in the words of the article), if the jews do certain things to do with the west bank etc.

What IS a 'hudna', and how can it be the basis of lasting peace between the jews and the arabs ?


No, I think its because its a deeper exploration of the groups you talk about in broad brush terms.

Peacemaking means you gotta talk. Even if it means talking to people you don't like.


eh ? No .. what ? Ahh, I get it. I've been doing a Turing test !


ha ha ha :-)

Oliver Kamm

Please take this private conversation off-line.

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